Greenlight Video Discussion

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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Guitarguy1133 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:45 am

still crosshair wrote:
Timpraetor wrote:Well, if you missed it in the other thread, we've started testing XM 2.5 for PC. The new installer is doing the right thing and the new features are excellent additions and bring the PC version on par with the Xbox 360 version.

I'm working on some build and AI mob videos so that we can move the Steam effort forward.


Sounds interesting and something that will help it get PC support. While I would say that showing off modding abilities would definitely help its just so hard to do that its kind of a false positive you know. Sure it can be done but not everyone has the stuff or patience to do it.


I'd love to see this game on PC make a comeback... I dont own a xbox and i wont own any M$ consoles ever again after they screwed me on my 360.. If Xenominer gets on steam and is a hit I'd love to see stand alone servers (like tshock for terraria or bukkit for MC) and the maybe have swarm on steam. I've only played MP like 2 times cause i don't know of any IP addresses or anyone who even plays on PC anymore. but yea if the steam thig is a great success i will be tremendously excited!!
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Conmaan » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:21 am

Guitarguy1133 wrote:
still crosshair wrote:
Timpraetor wrote:Well, if you missed it in the other thread, we've started testing XM 2.5 for PC. The new installer is doing the right thing and the new features are excellent additions and bring the PC version on par with the Xbox 360 version.

I'm working on some build and AI mob videos so that we can move the Steam effort forward.


Sounds interesting and something that will help it get PC support. While I would say that showing off modding abilities would definitely help its just so hard to do that its kind of a false positive you know. Sure it can be done but not everyone has the stuff or patience to do it.


I'd love to see this game on PC make a comeback... I dont own a xbox and i wont own any M$ consoles ever again after they screwed me on my 360.. If Xenominer gets on steam and is a hit I'd love to see stand alone servers (like tshock for terraria or bukkit for MC) and the maybe have swarm on steam. I've only played MP like 2 times cause i don't know of any IP addresses or anyone who even plays on PC anymore. but yea if the steam thig is a great success i will be tremendously excited!!

I agree dude.

I'll probably one of those people hosting a server haha.
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Guitarguy1133 » Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:35 am

Just out of curiosity is grist no longer trying for greenlight?
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Guitarguy1133 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:48 am

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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby BushKillFalls » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:38 pm

Lol Nice giffs...

They are quite busy working on the latest bug in swarm.. Kind of a time crunch to get it out as fast as possible.. But I know there has been work on a video and I think tonight we are actually supposed to get together as testers to shoot some more clips... I am sure they want the PC to be as Bug Free before launch also so bear with the process 8-)
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Timpraetor » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:44 pm

Still working on it. The BMT, GamersGate and Desura uploads are done, so we can now start working on the video and promotion.

I'm dedicating the weekend to some vids for them to edit and post (they have to post, users can't).
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Guitarguy1133 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 4:05 am

oh nice. thats good news. i was afraid they had given up on steam and green light. im glad to hear they're still interested in it =)
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Guitarguy1133 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:19 am

I just wonder if the current content in 2.5 is enough to pass greenlight... if it had the features that swarm and downgate have (differnt guns, differnt enemies, etc etc) it would stand a better chance of making it onto steam...
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby still crosshair » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:32 am

Guitarguy1133 wrote:I just wonder if the current content in 2.5 is enough to pass greenlight... if it had the features that swarm and downgate have (differnt guns, differnt enemies, etc etc) it would stand a better chance of making it onto steam...


A ingame chat seems like an essential PC game thing :)
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Re: Greenlight Video Discussion

Postby Guitarguy1133 » Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:39 am

it also needs an in-game chat implementation... preferably text based so you can not only chat but issue commands such as /teleport /spawn /setspawn /sethome /home.... any PC game needs a form of in game communication... whether it be voice or text... It's my personal opinion that Grist is too focused on console to care too much about making it onto steam, even tho it would open up to tons of potential new players as well as increasing profit margin. The game has so much more potential on PC than it does on console... look at other voxel games... or just games in general. they started on PC and now there are tons of differnt mods and plugins and servers... where as their console versions are limited to (and a bit behind the PC) only the original version of the game... Xenominer on PC in my opinion is much more profitable than it is on console... there have been TONS of feature requests that grist has flat out stated "that is not possible due to the limitations of the xbox but would be possible on PC" if there are more possibilites on PC why not focus on THAT instead of working on other things... :| :|

Gristmill wrote:Sorry BotBot, we really are.

It sounds like you experienced a memory overflow. There's not much we can do at that point: we've tweaked and streamlined pretty much anything we could to keep memory pressure down. On the Xbox, memory is so limited, the amount we're working with would make a flip phone from 2004 look like a beast.

At this point my only recommendation would be that you perhaps take note of the general size of your world before it crashed, and consider that a sort of top-limit when building out a new world.

Some of our engine re-work that began with Downgate and has continued to this point focuses on re-organizing the game to be structured differently, but we're still unsure how or if that can roll back to XenoMiner (as DG was arena-based and XM is infinite world). We'll keep you guys posted as the work progresses.



Gristmill wrote:The Xbox GC limit is ... 1MB. We don't hit that every fifteen minutes, we used to hit it every 2 seconds (that was the hitch you'd see if you just sat and spun the camera, or when you were jumping). These days it's much better, but still probably less than a minute.

How do you keep from hitting a 1MB buffer limit? You pretty much treat C# like it is C. You never do a "new" on a class, only on structs, unless you have no choice. You make member variables to hold temporary data instead of instantiating temporary variables.

You tend to use Arrays and rewrite their contents rather than Lists that are renewed all the time. You never do list.new() but rather .clear() the old one and reuse (if you're using a list at all).

You can't use LINQ, it's a garbage hog, and you have to be careful about boxing: C# "boxes" a struct into a class Object if you use it as a key to a dictionary. So even an Enum (just a simple struct like a byte or an int) becomes a class. IF you cast that enum to a byte or an int and use that as the dictionary key, however, it will remain a struct (this blows my mind). Structs are safe to new() because they're on the stack, and not on the heap. You learn to love structs.

Strings are your enemy. You learn to use StringBuilders instead. You don't ever compare strings unless you have to, and you never do something like String.split() (you're creating an array of objects containing the pieces of that string).

In our scenario, forcing a GC call is meaningless because we have GC events on the order of seconds, not minutes - otherwise that would be a great idea Bush. In fact, if it only happened once a minute or so, we'd put a force in any menu event assuming the player will likely open a menu at least once a minute, and save us the frames.

Fun times :)


Gristmill wrote:
Mataeus wrote:Can you guys ever see the engine being optimised to handle a significant increase? I realise of course that working with XNA limits the performance you can get out of the Xbox which is why we see performance hits even though the games are nowhere near the fidelity of, say, Assassin's Creed III; but do you think it to be manageable?


Janx does a good job of covering the reality of this. This actually has much less to do with XNA itself and more to do with the simple math. At 2x the height you require 4x the memory.

The Xbox itself has 256MB of RAM. Keep in mind it's not uncommon for the current gaming PC to have 16GB.

Xbox retains about 100MB of RAM to run the Xbox OS (some slimmed version of windows).

That leaves us with 156MB to work with. The Xbox also doesn't have any Graphics Card RAM. That's right, it's a video game computer with no dedicated graphics memory. That means we can't even shunt off simple things like the block edges and indexes to the graphics card, that all comes at cost from our 156MB. Including all of our sounds, music, textures, models, and any "state" held in RAM like doors, items, backpacks, storage containers, etc ... things that can't "wink out" when you walk away, but need to be generally accessible.

At 256 high, I believe terrain itself was around 120 - 130 MB. That left us with 26 MB of RAM, but that's theoretical, the Xbox sometimes needs more than it's normal 100, so anything over 130 is pretty close to an inevitable crash (it will happen, only a question of when).

So, as Janx explained, the only way to get that amount of height on the Xbox is to either: reduce the data size footprint of the terrain, such as dropping colors from lights, removing radiation (and any potential of fluids or air pressure), or reduce the footprint itself (draw less terrain, bring it down to 7 chunks out or so). There really aren't other options, and I doubt it would get any better even if we had the C++ SDK. Perhaps we could drop the Xbox OS off altogether (I doubt it), but reality is this is a space issue, not a speed issue.


WTF Grist...
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